Is It Lawful?
I have recently researched a plethora of subjects and realized that while there are many straightforward teachings in the Bible, there are just as many areas that are either misunderstood by us or limited in information. (Just look at the previous posts!) So, now we come to the issue at hand - tithing. Tithing is taught by many to be an Old Testament decree that falls under the Law, and, therefore, it is no longer to be taught. Such teachings now emphasize the giving of offerings. There is of course the other side that teaches tithing is not just an Old Testament decree that falls under the Law but a directive that stands alone (before and after the Law). They of course also teach offerings but such offerings are in addition to tithes. Now, there are probably variations of these two (and maybe some totally different teachings), but for sake of space, I will not try to worry about that. While I teach that tithing was demonstrated before the Law and not necessarily bound to the Law, it would be nice to receive some input from all of you (and you know who you are!!!) so that "iron might sharpen iron." So what about...is tithing lawful?!?
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6 hours ago
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The Bible teaches that Abraham tithed to the LORD. Tithing (the first 10%) was a part of the Law. Paul wrote that each should give as he has purposed in his heart, and that he should give as the Lord prospered him.
I think this is an irrelevant debate. If our hearts are right with the Lord, we will give (according to our ability) what is needed to finance the ministries of the church.
-Leland Acker
1) Jesus clearly threw out many OT/mosaic laws (like the food laws - Mark 7:19) during His lifetime...BUT He continued to commend tithing, even if only in a backhanded comment. (matt 23:23; luke 11:42) IMO, if the pharisees were charged with pursuing justice and mercy...while continuing to give a tenth of everything, you need to have a really good explanation why that is no longer binding on us today. (and more especially if there's a risk that we might be "robbing God" in malachi 3 language.)
2) per mr. acker's reference to paul, i don't think 2 cor 8-9 is about christian giving "in general." paul is specifically raising money for a unique gift (i.e. love offering) from the gentiles to the jewish church in jerusalem. and while they were to give this gift cheerfully and not under compulsion, he reminded them that it also related to a prior promise they had given (2cor9:5)...in other words, there was an obligation but they were still to give out of love.
at any rate, this gift would have to have been above any typical/regular giving to their local church/community, as presumably they did not neglect their local poor to give to the jews...and that most likely came from their tithe...(which, hopefully, was also cheerfully given.)
-charles
Leland,
You are right. If our hearts are right with God, then we will give as is proper. But I wonder how many people are right with God especially in the area of money!!!
Charles,
The Malachi 3 reference is an excellent argument for tithing. I do agree that tithing is still in place and that it really is for the "other side" (the dark side??? hahaha...) to prove their point.
Leland, I don't think it is an irrelevant debate, though perhaps it would be if all our hearts were right with God. Tithing is a handy tool to dress down church members as "thieves and robbers". We are often told the tithe is what is "owed" and offerings are anything above the tithe. Yet, somehow we manage to miss that in Malachi God said you rob me in tithes AND OFFERINGS.
Matt, B. M. Bogard has a little 1949 booklet that many tried to forget (not that he is always right on everything). It is titled Modern System of Tithing Unscriptural and I think I may have a few copies if you want one.
Charles, I'm not sure how you transpose Jesus' commendation of Jews keeping the law they were under to proof of NT tithing, regardless of whether there is a mention of how they left off the weightier matters of the law. I doubt most churches would be too satisfied with offerings of mint, anise, cummin, sheep, goats and turtledoves. Keep the money coming. :-O
Robert,
I would like to read that book if you have a copy I could borrow/have.
And I agree with you that God is owed a tithe of all we have. After all, He gave us everything we do have!
I've read the Bogard book.
I've been a pastor for 19 months. I have yet to preach on tithing. What I have preached on is faith, having a right relationship with God, and what it means to apply God's Word to your life.
My observation is that we have a tendency to "know" what the Bible teaches, and have strong opinions thereof. However, too often we fail to "live by faith." Hence, we inadvertently put ourselves back under a law system.
I know I am not making sense right now. I don't have space to share all of my thoughts. (I've even been branded a false teacher and been accused of compromise, but I am guilty of neither).
Let me illustrate my position. When you pray, do you pray because you are supposed to? Or do you pray, desiring to grow closer to the almighty God that created you then saved you?
When you witness, is it because you are supposed to? Or because you are truly concerned over the lost person you are interacting with?
When you tithe, are you calculating 10 percent? Or are you giving what you can out of thanksgiving?
My prayer for my church is that they reach a point in their spiritual life where their relationship with God motivates their actions, not "because we're supposed to."
Hence, the tithing debate is irrelevant in my opinion, because if our people are living by faith, they will not tithe a mere 10 percent, but will give above that according to their ability.
I know that most do not have their hearts right with the Lord. I believe that we should treat that disease, rather than the symptom of low offerings.
You may not agree with me, but do I at least make sense?
-Leland Acker
p.s. It does not bother me that people discuss such topics. I just thought I'd weigh in.
r.l. vaughn wrote: "Charles, I'm not sure how you transpose Jesus' commendation of Jews keeping the law they were under to proof of NT tithing..."
did you bother to look at mark 7:19, which i listed?
i explained why i believe that the "law the jews were under" changed with the coming of Christ rather than after His death or after the fall of the temple. as a result, it falls to you to explain why you believe tithing is somehow in a different category and could be disregarded later.
leland acker wrote: "the tithing debate is irrelevant in my opinion, because if our people are living by faith, they will not tithe a mere 10 percent, but will give above that according to their ability."
i agree with your conclusion but disagree with your premises. any rule or law, like "do tithe" or "don't commit adultery" is for the hard-hearted. when you are living by faith, you would never need to be told that adultery was out of bounds...but there will always be those who need to be instructed to put some part of their flesh to death. and the law helps us in diagnosing where our specific temptations lie, whether in love of money or something else.
-charles
Matt, I'll try to dig out a copy of the Bogard booklet. I probably wasn't clear since you thought I meant that God is owed a tithe of all we have. I believe He owns all we have, and we have been made stewards over what He has given us, to use for His cause, support of our families, good deeds, etc. As we labor as His stewards, we should use 100% of it wisely with the knowledge it all belongs to God -- not that I claim I do, but that is what I think the Scriptures teach and that is the goal. I don't think tithing as most Baptists conceive of it exactly figures into this.
Leland, I'm impressed that you have read Bogard's "Modern System of Tithing Unscriptural." Twenty-something years ago when I saw it mentioned in an old Searchlight, I thought I would never locate a copy. L. D. Foreman had it, but it was in archival storage. I finally got one from an elderly preacher named Carl S. Stephens. I'm glad it has gotten a little more circulation, if for no other reason that people might see how missionary Baptists have "evolved" on the teaching of tithing.
Charles, you say that you believe that the "law the jews were under" changed with the coming of Christ rather than after His death or after the fall of the temple. In addition to Mark 7:19, you also referenced Matthew 23:23. Which law is Jesus talking about when He said to the Jews you "pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin" -- the one that was in place before Christ came, or the one you say came into effect with the coming of Christ?
Robert,
I probably have misstated my point too! You said, "I probably wasn't clear since you thought I meant that God is owed a tithe of all we have. I believe He owns all we have, and we have been made stewards over what He has given us, to use for His cause, support of our families, good deeds, etc. As we labor as His stewards, we should use 100% of it wisely with the knowledge it all belongs to God." Now I agree with all of that. So, I'm going to try to find a copy of that book too and see how close (or far!) in agreement we are.
I couldn't find an extra copy of the booklet, but I'll Xerox it for you. IIRC, Bogard also had a book titled "Stewardship".
Yesterday I posted a clip about storehouse tithing by Mike McInnis. He has been doing a series on his blog on New Testament giving and I used a blurb from his. Actually made plans about a month back to post that on 23 August. Interesting how things work out.
It sure is!
lI don't think we are in the same league when we compare laws about tithing and laws about adultery. The Bible says fornicators and adulterers shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, not non-tithers.
A church full of people who don't tithe is indicative of a faith problem. I have found in such a case that preaching about demonstrating your faith by your works (James) is effective in getting people active (both financially and actively) in the ministry. Then, they give by faith and God is pleased.
Many people in our churches have heart disease (spiritually speaking). The symptoms of the disease include financial non-support, non-attendance, sinful acts, contentiousness, etc etc.
We need to treat the disease, along with some of the symptoms. My concern is that we don't get so pre-occupied with the symptoms that we fail to treat the disease.
Hmmm... not sure I will get my thoughts across very well... but here I go :o)
First all I have is God's, though many times I don't manage it well. I believe 10% is a starting point. It belongs to God though not necessarily the church. Though it is very practical if you want a ministry to exist, you must support it.
When you read the church in Acts, they sold stuff for others in need. I don't think the 10% was an issue. They gave more. I think they gave to each other, supported their leaders, took care of the poor/widows and missionaries and other churches etc... God was alive and real in their lives, he was first, he was more important and they did not value this world, as we do, so money wasn't the issue. Following God intimately in a relationship was. HE said give, they gave.
However, I find it amusing that most churches I know try to teach people to have faith in giving. "If you don't think you can afford, give in faith, God will provide." Then only run programs they can do, no faith. Let's have a contingency fund... contingency on what... that God won't work?? If God wants missionaries to be supported. He will provide. Preach give in faith... then practice it.
God never let anyone be comfortable in the Bible.... if we only give in our lives on every level routinely what is comfortable as an individual or a church... then I would argue there is very little of God in it.
We need to treat the disease, along with some of the symptoms. My concern is that we don't get so pre-occupied with the symptoms that we fail to treat the disease.
I was thinking about that comment all day. I am not sure I agree with that. Isn't anything not done in faith, sin? So if someone gives because they are pressured, it isn't in faith. Then they are trying to justify themselves by their actions... which is impossible, humanistic, works based. Anything in our lives is because of God working in us, we can do nothing but obey and cooperate. So anything that is not of God, brought on by God, convicted by God in our lives is of us and filthy rags. Whether it be tithing, serving, attending church etc...
God doesn't even need us to accomplish his will. If the people didn't cry out, the rocks and stones would because God's will always get done. That is the wonder of grace, that God would even want to use me.
Maybe I am missing something.
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